patcapo
Registered: 07/06/07
Posts: 27
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| | 07/29/07 at 08:53 AM | Reply with quote | #1 |
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Hi Everyone,
I was just checking on the status of the Jury Selections. #57's judging was just closed with not enough yes votes. I was shocked since in my humble opinion her/his work was just beautiful. The workmanship is excellent, neat and clean, no messy confusing wires all over the place. The pieces have flow, the eye flows over the design easily. Good balance between wire and stone, neither overpowered each other. I loved the bails, nice use of the top wires. Good use of design based on bringing out the beauty of the stone etc. I could go on.... On the other hand in my opinion there are selections that passed that were not as good as Jury #57. So what was is about Jury #57's work that did not warrant enough yes votes? Sorry if I'm stepping on any toes here but I just feel that Jury #57 was treated unfairly. Or maybe I don't understand what not enough yes votes means.
Pat.....................
http://www.patriciacapotosto.com
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gypse
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Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 2,082
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| | 07/29/07 at 09:46 AM | Reply with quote | #2 |
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The jury procedures and jury guidelines are found here.
If you look back through the jury applications, mentally separate them into round 1 and round 2.
Round 1, we were making things up as we went and feeling our way into a jury system that could work. Only charter members were allowed to jury in that system. Some of the entries that passed then would not pass now.
Round 2, we took that learning experience and hashed out guidelines. Good, clear pictures are extremely important. The camera magnifies all flaws in any piece and people need to pay attention to pick pieces the camera likes - not just that they like. The judging guidelines talk about workmanship, creativity, and versatility. Neither creativity or versatility can be at the expense of workmanship.
All judging is done blind by the existing jury members. All jury members are required to vote on each selection. It is a responsibility of being a juried member and if a juried member fails to participate on an on-going basis, they can lose their juried status. None of the juried members know who they are voting on, unless they happen to recognize a piece that the person has posted elsewhere.
It is up to each juried member to refresh their memory on the judging guidelines and apply them. They email their votes to our vote tallier, who keeps track of which juried members have voted. She tallies the votes and cuts/pastes the comments received into a summary document that does not disclose who made what comments. She tallies the score. There is a chart at the end of the guidelines that shows you what the passing or failing scores are, depending on how many juried members we currently have. Seems to me right now we have 41 members, so we would have to have at least 27 vote to count the vote. At least 18 of those members would have to vote yes for the application to pass. No more than 9 could vote no - or no more than 6 could vote "can't tell" for the application to pass.
Poor picture quality makes it impossible to judge a selection. If 6 or more people said they "can't tell", voting would just be stopped and the application would fail.
If enough people are saying no, they can overrule the rest of the vote. For example, with 41 juried members, if 30 said yes and 11 said no. Even though they got more than the minimum number of yes votes, they got too many no votes, and they will not pass.
I can not tell you what the juried members saw that caused this application to be denied. I can tell you that the applicant will receive the vote breakdown and the comment summary.
I no longer do the jury applications, but when I did, that was the worst part of the job. Passing on the information that an application had been denied. I encourage people in that position to really read through the comments. Look at their pictures. Hurt for a moment. Then shake it off, learn from it, and come back and try it again. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen. Some people just quit the guild and don't come back.
When I was posting the applications, I did see the comment summaries. I have been impressed that over the time period we have been doing this, the comments have become much more specific and targeted. People are getting better at expressing what they think is lacking in a piece.
Only the 3 people that get to see the comment summary (the vote tallier, the poster who "decodes the application number, and the applicant) get to see the reasons why. (and the first 2 can not share their knowledge except in general terms)
(I will check on what was written on the application though. I still get the final result numbers, so I can update the membership data base when people pass. The note I got said too many no votes rather than not enough yes votes.)
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gypse
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Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 2,082
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| | 07/29/07 at 09:53 AM | Reply with quote | #3 |
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BTW - no, you will not see much discussion of individual jury applications on the board. For starters, since they are all blind, we strongly discourage any discussion of any application in the voting stages. On the rare occasion that it has happened, I do believe it has influenced the vote.
People that get juried are very excited, but can't get too exuberant on the board in deference to the feelings of people that don't get juried. People that don't pass don't want people to know it was their application, so they don't normally post.
From my stint doing the jury aps, people that learned from the first time and came back and re-applied all passed on the 2nd attempt.
AS FAR AS DISCUSSION OF THE JURY PROCESS, there used to be a LOT of it. Look back through the private discussion boards in the members areas and in the guild areas on this board and you will see their was lively debate. There was even livelier debate on Brandywine's forum, where the debate started - that was summarized in the white board post.
The fact that discussion of jury methods has died down to nothing is the major thing that tells me we are doing pretty good with it. That doesn't mean we have perfected it, individual bias still applies, but it has become so non-controversial in the group that we must have gotten the major concerns.
Overtime, as people have new ideas, they jury procedures can come up for revisiting. Normally we do take controversial topics like these off this board and over to the private forum to hash out.
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gypse
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Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 2,082
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| | 07/29/07 at 10:05 AM | Reply with quote | #4 |
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One more note - I just flipped over and looked at the application - one of the major areas this person might have lost points in the voting guidelines is versatility - everything is a pendant and all are done in almost identical styles. They could have lost in both the versatility and creativity areas.
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patcapo
Registered: 07/06/07
Posts: 27
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| | 07/29/07 at 10:14 AM | Reply with quote | #5 |
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Thanks Sue for the answer to my question,
As I said before I'm sorry if I overstepped my boundaries. Since I'm new here I don't yet know the protocol. I did read the rules for judging and I felt that Jury #57 follow them well. So I guess it boils down to a matter of opinion. Obviously if I were voting Jury #57 would have gotten a yes. I understand how it goes and that there are reasons why the members vote as they do and it is up to us to respect that they had good reason for their decision. I hope that Jury #57 doesn't get discouraged by the rejection, he or she has a lot of talent.
Pat.........................
http://www.patriciacapotosto.com
Yes Sue I was thinking that because they were all pendant's could have been a strong factor for not enough yes votes, I just thought they were executed so well. Thanks for your input.
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gypse
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Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 2,082
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| | 07/29/07 at 10:19 AM | Reply with quote | #6 |
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I don't consider a quest for understanding in any way overstepping bounds.
And yes, I hope each and every applicant that ends up in 57's position shakes it off and reapplies. As I've said, I can not tell you for sure, but I would guess the person needs to come in with a larger range and maybe some additional techniques. It does not look to me like execution was the problem.
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gypse
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Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 2,082
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| | 07/29/07 at 10:26 AM | Reply with quote | #7 |
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And just fyi - people doing sculpts and borders seemed to get judged harder than people doing other techniques. I'm not sure if the reason is that more of the juried members are familiar with those techniques, to be able to really judge the execution. Applications that are in techinques not used by as many people seem to get an easier time.
But from my time seeing the comments, I was impressed how much people grew in their ability to judge off pictures. I'm amazed at how much pictures show and how much more I can see than when I started.
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patcapo
Registered: 07/06/07
Posts: 27
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| | 07/29/07 at 10:45 AM | Reply with quote | #8 |
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You have a strong point about Sculpts and Border wraps. Much of wire jewelry is represented in pendants. If an artist does a lot of pendants his or her style could influence how they view others work.
What I love most about wire jewelry, is where is has gone and continues to go, it is growing in leaps and bounds. There are so many different and creative styles now. When I first started everything was so limited, it was square half hard wire, a few classic patterns and yes mostly pendants. I'm thrilled to see how much wire work has grown and how creative so many people are. It's grown so much we hardly call it "Wire Wrapped Jewelry" anymore, it has earned it's new less rigid status by calling it Wire Art.
Pat...............
http://www.patriciacapotosto.com
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gypse
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Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 2,082
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| | 07/29/07 at 10:54 AM | Reply with quote | #9 |
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Yes, I think you have the web to thank for that 
The ability to share - be it pictures or discussions of techniques - really seems to have exploded the directions people take things. People that have done this for a long time say they felt "isolated" - it was hard to find other people that did wire - and when you did, many "protected their turf" and didn't share knowledge.
With the computer, we can share on an international basis. The more people share, the more the entire art form seems to grow. People take techniques and shoot off in totally different directions. It's exciting. One of these days I'll actually break out of my tailored style and get wild  I always love seeing what others can do, but haven't found it in myself to let go and let it flow like that.
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DianneKargBaron
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Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 534
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| | 07/29/07 at 11:51 AM | Reply with quote | #10 |
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Hi Pat -
Sue's done an excellent job of explaining the thinking behind the jurying process. I can see where both of you are coming from - like you, I agree that the work that was presented was lovely, but I also agree with Sue's point that the versatility and creativity portions of the judging may have been a sticking point with a lot of people.
For the person submitting their work, getting juried status is a stamp of approval of sorts. We encourage people who are juried to promote their status on their website and at their shows - to use it as a marketing tool. By the same token, juried members also then represent the guild, so it's important for those people who are looking for juried status to understand that we're committed to promoting quality workmanship, and also artistry.
I recently had a look all of the previous juried entries, and I noticed as well that we seem to have gotten more stringent over time. It's exactly what Sue said: in the first round we were feeling our way, and by the second round, we had a clearer idea of what we really want "juried" status to represent. Clearly some of the juried submissions from Round 1 would not pass now. That opens the question about whether or not we should ask successful applicants from both rounds to resubmit after X number of years? It would be interesting to do it from the standpoint of seeing how much their work has grown.
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patcapo
Registered: 07/06/07
Posts: 27
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| | 07/29/07 at 12:19 PM | Reply with quote | #11 |
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Yes Dianne, and I thank Sue for her clear explanation. I do agree that the fact that the selections were all pendants was probably the biggest problem. I thought of it later when I was asking myself what could have caused not enough yes answers.
Any organization with any value will grow with time and that's a good thing, the Guild should be proud of it's accomplishments. But maybe it's not a bad idea to revisit some of the earlier applicants, they may appreciate it. I'll be their work has grown also. I'm sure Dianne you've done pieces years ago that at the time you though were great and when you looked at them years later you wondered what you were thinking. I know that's happen to me more times than I'd like to mention.
Pat.............
http://www.patriciacapotosto.com
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DianneKargBaron
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Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 534
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| | 07/29/07 at 12:40 PM | Reply with quote | #12 |
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Oh, yes. I shudder at some of the things I did years ago...  I have a large box of "unsellable" jewellery... I pull it out every so often to remind me of my humble and humbling beginnings.
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gypse
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Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 2,082
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| | 07/29/07 at 01:41 PM | Reply with quote | #13 |
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I'm not arguing for or against here - just giving some historical perspective -
if you look at round 1 applicants, you'll see that although some passed, "juried member" is lined out on the applications - that means that they are no longer juried members. If they choose to come back, they have to re-apply and pass again to say they are a juried member.
The last time this discussion came up, we decided that the charter members that funded our start up get no other perks, so not making them re-apply would be a good one. Time has shaken out the majority of the applications that I don't think would pass today. Either people that moved on in their interests, couldn't be bothered with jurying new applicants, etc.
You'll kind of tell how people feel by whether people pick up on this thread and start pushing for re-jurying or not. I'm open either way - but at the moment I'm just immersed in trying to re-write the web site for the 3rd time in 3 years - on another host - that will solve the membership database problems.  
BTW - the BIGGEST improvements from round 1 to round 2 is the quality of the pictures submitted. We didn't have the "can't tell" clause in round 1. Now, if the pics aren't good enough, the voting just stops.
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ElizabethB
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 450
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| | 07/29/07 at 09:02 PM | Reply with quote | #14 |
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This has evolved into a FASCINATING discussion - thanks, Pat, for raising the questions, and thanks, Sue, for such a comprehensive and compassionate encapsulation of the 3 progressive rounds of jurying.
As a charter member and novice jeweler, I was grateful to squeak in during Round 1 of the jury process. As a non-traditional free-styler, I'm still feeling my way, and quite frankly haven't figured an independently creative approach to wire rings. And did I mention my lousy photos? See for yourself, and I still haven't come up with anything nicer!
Had I submitted during round 2 or round 3, by which time we'd found our sea legs as a guild, I would've been rightfully washed out.
My feelings are... If a majority of members decide that hey, the board's been too quiet, let's get some opinions cooking... I'd be game. I'm grateful for passing the jury process when the bar was lower and more forgiving, but feel funny about whether the standards I was juried by were as rigorous as those who passed Rounds 2 & 3.
So, should I get off my duff, find mythical spare time to produce clear photos of diverse new stuff, and voluntarily re-submit as if I never went through Round 1? How do other Round 1 jury-ees feel about this? I don't want anyone to feel forced to re-submit, but maybe there should be more appreciation & recognition of the round 2 & 3 folks who had to get their works past considerably more stringent juries.
Not to disparage those from round 1 who could whup ass regardless, blind-folded and with one arm tied behind their back. I just think this is a fascinating avenue of discussion... and I'm curious to see where it leads. |
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NancyF
Moderator
Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 1,272
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| | 07/30/07 at 07:03 AM | Reply with quote | #15 |
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Thanks Sue for the GREAT explanation!  Somehow, I missed this post. 
I am SURE that if #57 submitted pendant, earrings, a bracelet...she or he would pass with flying colors. I thought that who ever it was...was a talented person. 
AS for resubmitting for jury...I'm game. The only thing I see, is that some artists submitting may not be so anonymous? However, that was the case in some submissions any how and it never colored my judgment. I just follow the guidelines. 
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gypse
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Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 2,082
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| | 07/30/07 at 09:51 AM | Reply with quote | #16 |
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Nancy - I do think you are right about the first round. The nature of the beast at the time, the small group that had shared a lot, not everyone got judged from their submissions. Some got recognized and judged by the body of their work.
From round 1 to round 2, we added "can't tell's", we added a maximum number of no's, and we added guidelines. People really wanted the guidelines and there was a lot of discussion around the guidelines. A lot of time and effort was put into trying to make them fair. The number one thing people need to do in jurying now is read those guidelines and make sure their submission takes them into account. Well, that and look at their pictures and make sure the work shown is pretty much flawless.
The funny thing is, the people that really have a hard time jurying now seem to be people with published work. If they have published in WAG or some other popular book or forum and people have started copying them, they have a devil of a time jurying with their original creations. People assume it has been copied and ding them on their creativity scores.
And there is a definite difference between commercial success and getting juried. People with commercial success tend to focus in on what makes them money and specialize there. Pendants are a big part of this. Not worrying about slight imperfections is part of this. But you have to change your mind set when jurying.
The jury is blind. I can personally attest - having been the person posting and now just being a member of the jury - I have no idea who it is I'm judging. I've been trying to guess on some of these - but I haven't been right yet. The jury has no idea of a person's body of work when they are looking at these photos. They can only judge on the 6-10 photos that the applicant put into play. The applicant can't rest on their laurels - they must read the guidelines and submit photos that will allow them to be judged including creativity and versatility.
My memory of the creativity and versatility requirements was that people did not want someone that could only make one setting that they learned off a video and that every other starting artist was likely to make being juried. That didn't carry over to someone that specialized and only made/only was known for one thing now - but something they had developed and brought to its highest art form.
The feeling was though that someone in that position was capable of creating some other pieces - even if only for the jury process.
(Although I empathize with the feeling of not having time to go through the process. The thought of re-jurying because I was in the first group is an oh-no - I don't even have time to update my jury photos for shows!)
We've had several WAG artists go through the jury process lately. So if they have input on how we improve the jury process, I'd definitely like to hear it.
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gypse
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Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 2,082
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| | 07/31/07 at 01:03 PM | Reply with quote | #17 |
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Another BTW , there is a major piece of the puzzle still missing - the educational path.
If you look back through "the white board" you will see the "founding ideas". When we started, there were 2 major divisions apparent, the people actively selling and the people actively learning.
The jury system was set up for people actively selling. It acknowledges that the quality of a piece of jewelry that I sell or that you sell impacts everyone else's ability to sell wire jewelry.
"Wire University" is still a pipe dream for people actively learning. The people that pushed for that wanted a system of standard projects from which they would learn specific skills. They wanted a method of getting those pieces critiqued and rated - and to be awarded certificates as they mastered set goals.
The guild moves forward on the areas that get discussion and volunteers to follow up. It takes more than enthusiasm - it takes someone that can evision the program, put the framework in place, and hash out the procedures for people to follow. It takes time and work. It has been thought that that person will be the education chair. To date, we have not found that volunteer.
As chief bottlewasher, I've used the categories that were mentioned on the whiteboard to form the outline structure for the education library and after I get the other things off my to-do list, I will work to get those sections all filled with some tutorials. But for the beginner that wants some validation, for the person that just wants a certificate verifying that the guild believes they have mastered one technique or one type, that is the planned mechanism.
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wireddragonfly
Registered: 12/10/04
Posts: 137
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| | 08/01/07 at 09:57 AM | Reply with quote | #18 |
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This is interesting. How many of the round 1 jury are still with us? One of the requirements of passing the jury process, was that you had to participate in the jurying of new applications. And of course all of those that are still with us from round one participated in setting up the rules for round 2. I don't know if anyone has been asked to leave because they didn't vote the required times. I would guess that those that couldn't be bothered to vote probably dropped out anyway. Those that juried under round 1 and are still with the guild, obviously have kept at their craft and are dedicated guild members and in all likelyhood would not have a problem with passing a jury now. Yes, under todays guidelines their original submissions may not have passed, but I don't feel a need to revisit those charter members jury worthiness since they are valued dedicated members that have continued and improved their craft. |
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NancyF
Moderator
Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 1,272
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| | 08/05/07 at 07:16 AM | Reply with quote | #19 |
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Elaine is right of course...those of us who juried in the 1st go round more than likely have only gotten better and would have no problem passing the jury process now. I don't think re-submitting is necessary...and as Sue said...it isn't the fear of not passing, just the time consuming ordeal of making items, taking pics and re-submitting that would be a pain. 
I am VERY happy that #57 is re-submitting.
As far as people submitting pieces that came from WAG or where ever...I find that a lot of people surf the net period to get ideas. Designing pieces seems to be hard for some...yet they can execute techniques really well.
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gypse
Moderator
Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 2,082
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| | 08/05/07 at 07:07 PM | Reply with quote | #20 |
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The "problem" seems to be finding someway for the person that actually originated the published design to use it without getting dinged. The person could simply use non-published designs - but some get dinged for using the "style" as well as the specific design.
I understand that the jury is pushing the artists that are simply using the designs to submit their own original work for jurying. But when the published design is the own original work of the artist . . .
I think part of the reason they want to use the published design is that they often have professional photos of that work. Part is that they are proud of it. Most do have other work they can use.
If we let them add "although seen frequently, I am the originator of this particular design", then it is no longer a blind judging.
Just seems to be going in circles . . . .
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wiretreasures
Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 134
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| | 09/18/07 at 04:36 PM | Reply with quote | #21 |
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I want to post here to encourage those who don't make it being juried in the first time to try again. But my main reason is to encourage those of us jurying to do our job of detailing for the candidate any issues so they will know what to concentrate on upon resubmission.
I didn't make it the first time and was much "befuddled" as to what to change or work on for resubmission. Therefore, it took me over a year to work up the courage to have another go at it. And it was only through encouragement from Sue and Steve that I did so.
I post here an e-mail to Sue who at the time was in the position of posting the submission photos. It more or less explains what I felt and saw in the lack of feedback in my first judging.
Hi Sue,
Thanks for your words of encouragement to re-submit. I started out being upset, now I am just befuddled.
I have reviewed all the comments and am somewhat at a loss of what to do.
While the instructions for jurying state that any no vote should include comments so the artist will know what the problems are, very few of the 11 had detailed comment and some seemed to have no comment at all.
From what appears to be the no votes my workmanship/control seems to have been heavily 'dinged' as well as my design.
"Almost there" - only comment given, don't know what this means
"needs more wire control"
"needs better wire control"
"trying to make sure I'm not judging on design" - but the majority of comments are about my design, so I assume they did judge on design
"see some unevenness"
"not enough variety in styles or creativity"
"weakness in design" and wire seems too flimsy
My only guess is that these jurors don't like the sculptured pieces nor their design while many of the yes votes were very complimentary of them.
It really makes me feel good to read the comments of those who like my work. I know it is easier to write complimentary comments. Some of the complimentary ones gave me suggestions for improvements which I really appreciate. But it is imperative that those voting no give detailed comments so I can figure out a common denominator or there is no use in my re-submitting.
Detailed comments are imperative for me as well as future applicants.
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NancyF
Moderator
Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 1,272
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| | 09/19/07 at 09:20 AM | Reply with quote | #22 |
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I agree Gloria...it is indeed easier to say something nice to applicants and harder to critique with negativity. However, it is imperative to let applicants know in more detail why a no was given. I try to do this, but will make sure in the future to be more specific. I think we assume that the applicants know what we mean, when in reality, they do not.
Thank you for enlightening us!
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gypse
Moderator
Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 2,082
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| | 01/11/09 at 06:59 PM | Reply with quote | #23 |
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FYI - the topic of "is it time to review our jury procedures" has come up again on the members only forum on the website. If you are a juried member or are a guild member that would like to apply to become juried, please make sure to sign into the members area of the website and put your 2 cents in on that discussion!!
Website - http://www.WireJewelryArtists.org
Use the box in the upper right corner to sign in.
Once logged in, you will see an icon on the red menu bar that says "members areas" and has a lock next to it. Click on that - note, sometimes you need to click in the upper area. If you see an arrow, it won't click. Once it goes to a hand, it will click.
Click on the link to the members only forum.
It will probably be the top topic.
You can also "subscribe" to this forum while you are there, so that you get an email notice when there are new posts there.
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